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Post by dkiddo on May 25, 2010 15:31:35 GMT -4
Another question: If Hurley drank from the water Jack gave him (meaning: he was immortal or at least he couldn't age like Jacob), how come he's dead? Or the water didn't work? Because as far as I know, Jack died because once the power of the island was shut down, he and smokey became mortal, and once it was turned back on, Smokey was dead and Jack was deadly wounded. Plus, he gave Hurley the water before he went down to the light and turn it back on, so the power of the island was gone.
Does that mean that the "water drinking" was only symbolical?
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Post by tigerlily on May 25, 2010 16:39:15 GMT -4
Another question: If Hurley drank from the water Jack gave him (meaning: he was immortal or at least he couldn't age like Jacob), how come he's dead? Or the water didn't work? Because as far as I know, Jack died because once the power of the island was shut down, he and smokey became mortal, and once it was turned back on, Smokey was dead and Jack was deadly wounded. Plus, he gave Hurley the water before he went down to the light and turn it back on, so the power of the island was gone.
Does that mean that the "water drinking" was only symbolical? I think the water made Hurley ageless, but not immortal, just like Jacob. Jacob could be killed, just like his "mother" before him and Jack after him. The water gave Hurley the power that the protector of the island held. Somehow, in the future, Hurley must have been killed by someone or something and somebody new had to succeed him.
Agelessness is not the same thing as immortality, in other words.
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Post by dkiddo on May 25, 2010 17:11:41 GMT -4
Another question: If Hurley drank from the water Jack gave him (meaning: he was immortal or at least he couldn't age like Jacob), how come he's dead? Or the water didn't work? Because as far as I know, Jack died because once the power of the island was shut down, he and smokey became mortal, and once it was turned back on, Smokey was dead and Jack was deadly wounded. Plus, he gave Hurley the water before he went down to the light and turn it back on, so the power of the island was gone.
Does that mean that the "water drinking" was only symbolical? I think the water made Hurley ageless, but not immortal, just like Jacob. Jacob could be killed, just like his "mother" before him and Jack after him. The water gave Hurley the power that the protector of the island held. Somehow, in the future, Hurley must have been killed by someone or something and somebody new had to succeed him.
Agelessness is not the same thing as immortality, in other words. You're right, they could die, but they couldn't age. I wonder, who killed Hugo? Ben? xD (impossible, he said "you were a great NÂș2", and the only people left in the island at that time were Rose, Bernard (who wouldn't kill a fly), Ben and Hurley. Could it be Vincent?? lol) Thanks Jo
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Post by meegat on May 25, 2010 17:36:05 GMT -4
Someone on a Dr Who group (!) has just posted something - apparently from "one of the guys at Bad Robot". I don't know who or where it came from but it's an excellent look at the finale and where it all fits in - not to mention some great stuff about fitting the entire series neatly into it: Good stuff on here! I can finally throw in my two cents! I've had to bite my tongue for far too long. Also, hopefully I can answer some of John's questions about Dharma and the "pointless breadcrumbs" that really, weren't so pointless ...
First ... The Island:
It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him -- even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.
Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.
Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.
Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That's a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still ... Dharma's purpose is not "pointless" or even vague. Hell, it's pretty blantent.
Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his "candidates" (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of "candidates" through the decades and letting them "choose" which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn't. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector -- I know that's how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won't answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.
In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he'd always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we'll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on ...
Now...
Sideways World:
Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least -- because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer's room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we're all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it's not exactly the best word). But these people we're linked to are with us duing "the most important moments of our lives" as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It's loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.
The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this "sideways" world where they exist in purgatory until they are "awakened" and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show's concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own "Sideways" purgatory with their "soulmates" throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That's a beautiful notion. Even if you aren't religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.
It's a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events -- not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.
How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that's THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.
But the writer's took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways "purgatory" with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn't allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died -- some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley's case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are "awakened" and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.
They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren't in the chuch -- basically everyone who wasn't in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here's where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It's possible that those links aren't people from the island but from their other life (Anna's parnter, the guy she shot --- Roussou's husband, etc etc).
A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn't go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can't move on yet because he hasn't connected with the people he needs to. It's going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley's number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It's really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.
But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church -- but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.
For me the ending of this show means a lot. Not only because I worked on it, but because as a writer it inspired me in a way the medium had never done before. I've been inspired to write by great films. Maybe too many to count. And there have been amazing TV shows that I've loved (X-Files, 24, Sopranos, countless 1/2 hour shows). But none did what LOST did for me. None showed me that you could take huge risks (writing a show about faith for network TV) and stick to your creative guns and STILL please the audience. I learned a lot from the show as a writer. I learned even more from being around the incredible writers, producers, PAs, interns and everyone else who slaved on the show for 6 years.
In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spirtual questions that most shows don't touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story -- even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.
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Post by bobdoc on May 25, 2010 18:15:48 GMT -4
I saw that too, but I wonder if he's on the level - mainly due to the part where he said only Season One people were in the church, which isn't true. Juliet wasn't an S1 character or a survivor, and neither was Penny - but they got in due to their loved ones. But Desmond was in there and wasn't an S1 character, and they were able to work around that since he awakened everyone. Maybe since they already had the hatch dreamed up from the beginning, they had Desmond worked out by then as well.
If they really had everything written six years ago, then they would have had to rewrite it at some point to allow Desmond, Penny, Juliet, Bernard and Libby in there. They probaly had Walt in the original draft, before they figured out he would get too big.
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Post by pflippflop09 on May 25, 2010 22:52:26 GMT -4
And for good measure, here is the final Bocke scene of all time for all.
Just watching this scene just now made me cry Michael is freakin' HAWT in this scene, though!
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Post by pflippflop09 on May 25, 2010 22:53:25 GMT -4
Oh, and the more I watch and think about "The End", the more I am satisfied with it... To me it's perfect, especially Ben's ending.
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Post by gungrave on May 26, 2010 4:04:07 GMT -4
Tonight, LOST will simulcast all over the world. Hence, I suggest that by Tuesday morning Easter Daylight time we will no longer need a spoiler tag on this topic or any LOST topic. Well, not in Finland, and I seriously doubt it will air near here until few weeks. But no tags is fine for me! i think if LOST showed on tv at same time with world (i dont know ,i think i wrote wrong i hope u understand) Turkey and Finland showed it at same time .i mean if Turkey's time is now 11.02 am it must be same at Finland 'cuz our time is same.Well,LOST must be showed in Finland when time is morning.like 5 am. or something..
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Post by bobdoc on May 26, 2010 9:38:39 GMT -4
I've been going back and noticing new things in the church each time I see it. I noted that Locke had the very last line in the history of Lost, saying "We've been waiting for you" before Giacchino's music took over. And note that when the light engulfed them all, Locke looked stunned and curious while most everyone else was still. His faith in the island started by seeing a bright white light from the MIB, but this time, he got to see a white light that was real, and that probably had a more overwhelming effect on him than everyone else.
Also note Hurley's Zen like smile in the light, probably a by product of being Jacob. I also think I saw Sawyer and Kate hugging in the first group shot - which probably isn't enough to make Skate fans feel like the finale didn't betray them. And the show had a long memory in including Boone among the important people Jack hugged - closure for the first survivor he couldn't save.
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Post by gem10 on May 26, 2010 10:50:29 GMT -4
When it ended I was just silent.
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Post by tigerlily on May 26, 2010 11:44:58 GMT -4
When it ended I was just silent. me too! except for the occasional sob...
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Post by Irina-cat lover on May 26, 2010 12:34:55 GMT -4
Oh, and the more I watch and think about "The End", the more I am satisfied with it... To me it's perfect, especially Ben's ending. I totally DO AGREE with you The more I watch, the more I like it, the more I understand it, and the harder is watching the last minutes foor me... Ben`s ending is brilliant. They couldn`t write it better - it`s best of the best.
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Post by bobdoc on May 26, 2010 13:32:05 GMT -4
It seems that everyone who hated the last act just hated the parts after Ben's final scene. So at least Ben got the last non-controversial, non-divisive scene in the show's history. Not only that, his final words praised someone else's leadership, which is another sign of how far he came.
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Post by melissaq9 on May 26, 2010 20:58:17 GMT -4
I think someone had mentioned wondering where Rose and Bernard were but I was watching a clip of the church scene and saw them. They were they and looking adorable together as usual. We can only hope they lived their lives out on the island peacefully.
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Post by pflippflop09 on May 27, 2010 10:53:43 GMT -4
Also, aren't there more people on the Island still? I think I remember MiB saying that all his followers from the Temple and such ran away back into the jungle when Widmore fired at them the second time (the time that Jack went flying through the air). So it's not like Ben, Hurley, Desmond, Rose and Bernard are the only people there.... I like to think that they all moved back into the Others' homes and lived happily everafter ;D
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